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Clothing and the Perkses [Mar. 14th, 2009|02:02 am]
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Chat log, for posterity.

12:16:23 AM damned_colonial: can we talk about clothing? and the perkses?
12:16:30 AM commodorified: we can
12:16:54 AM damned_colonial: alright. as of the first 4 movies, the boys are seen in trousers or knee-breeches, with shoes
12:17:00 AM damned_colonial: we don't see them in boots, IIRC.
12:17:11 AM damned_colonial: err, H and A i mean
12:17:28 AM commodorified: true this
12:17:34 AM damned_colonial: am i right? is there a good screencap archive still?
12:17:43 AM commodorified: I am unsure of this
12:17:47 AM commodorified: boots in F and L
12:17:59 AM damned_colonial: oh! archie gets dung on his.
12:18:01 AM commodorified: Archie has boots on, they get horseshit on them
12:18:02 AM damned_colonial: ok, they have boots.
12:18:02 AM commodorified: borg
12:18:15 AM damned_colonial: good. i was worried about them freezing their poor footsies.
12:18:24 AM damned_colonial: they have cloaks in the first ep, the duel
12:18:29 AM commodorified: yep
12:18:47 AM damned_colonial: do you think they have much in teh way of civilian clothes at all?
12:19:04 AM commodorified: hmm. with them all the time?
12:19:11 AM commodorified: I suspect not a lot, really
12:19:46 AM damned_colonial: likewise.
12:19:51 AM damned_colonial: they only have a foot-locker to store their shit in
12:20:05 AM damned_colonial: they're not going to go aboard the indy with a civilian wardrobe
12:20:14 AM commodorified: a decent coat each possibly
12:20:18 AM commodorified: at most
12:20:20 AM damned_colonial: yeah
12:20:43 AM commodorified: I mean judging from O Brien there's some stuff people do wear on board that isn't uniform. mostly stuff for warmth, etc.
12:20:51 AM damned_colonial: mufflers, mittens, etc.
12:20:56 AM damned_colonial: woollen drawers
12:21:01 AM commodorified: rainslickers, sweaters, even
12:21:05 AM damned_colonial: yes.
12:21:09 AM damned_colonial: but
12:21:23 AM damned_colonial: that's mostly before the mast
12:21:35 AM damned_colonial: there is no uniform specified for anyone under midshipman at that point in history
12:21:48 AM commodorified: Jack has a pile of odd things, I was noticing. Not as much as BTM, but this and that, sweaters, iirc
12:22:04 AM damned_colonial: aubrey? BTM?
12:22:09 AM damned_colonial: before the mast. right.
12:22:13 AM commodorified: Before the Mast and yeah, Aubrey.
12:22:21 AM damned_colonial: right.
12:22:34 AM damned_colonial: but he's also captain
12:22:42 AM damned_colonial: better to look at what, eg., pullings has
12:23:02 AM commodorified: true. but it's not really presented that way. my memory is fuzzy but I want to say mids have these things
12:23:17 AM damned_colonial: anyway, that's not so much our concern, because that cold/wet weather gear would be very much informal
12:23:20 AM damned_colonial: and not suitable for wearing ashore
12:23:34 AM damned_colonial: i mean, *nobody* wore sweaters except fishermen and whatnot.
12:23:37 AM commodorified: *nods* but Horatio being poor might bring some of it
12:23:39 AM commodorified: hmm, true
12:23:43 AM damned_colonial: *visualises beau brummel in a nice handknit gansey*
12:24:04 AM damned_colonial: no, horatio would *not*
12:24:07 AM damned_colonial: he would rather freeze.
12:24:30 AM commodorified: hmm, point
12:24:44 AM damned_colonial: horatio's filled out more since joining than archie has in the same timespan
12:24:53 AM commodorified: Does E. keep old clothes of various sorts about?
12:24:59 AM damned_colonial: getting there
12:25:09 AM damned_colonial: and archie's got better resources (family) to kit himself out when ashore
12:25:19 AM damned_colonial: when horatio was getting a new uniform at the start of F&L, it cleaned him out
12:25:23 AM commodorified: yeah
12:25:40 AM damned_colonial: archie, post-D&D, first time he went back to england, would probably have picked up a few things and not thought too much of it.
12:26:12 AM damned_colonial: so, i think each of them brought a civilian coat with them, but horatio's is really too tight across the shoulders
12:26:35 AM commodorified: yeah
12:26:51 AM damned_colonial: and yes, i do suspect E, or rather Weston, is able to dig up something for H to wear
12:27:34 AM damned_colonial: i suspect it's something countrified and a little big on H, but warm.
12:27:42 AM damned_colonial: good for when they go out shooting
12:28:38 AM commodorified: and a nice thick tweedy waistcoat?
12:28:44 AM damned_colonial: i won't specify where W managed to find it, but if it wasn't in the house itself, i wouldn't put it past E to send him to sir h's to see if their son, currently up at cambridge, might have something he's not using that could be borrowed
12:28:53 AM damned_colonial: they can keep wearing their usual waistcoats
12:29:28 AM damned_colonial: how would a coat of E's fit H?
12:31:15 AM damned_colonial: oh! archie's still in his short little mid's coat
12:32:47 AM commodorified: E's coat would be a tad large on H
12:33:21 AM damned_colonial: an older coat of E's might fit him ok
12:38:33 AM damned_colonial: ok, now E's clothes
12:38:55 AM damned_colonial: i'll assume he has a few good changes of clothes with him
12:39:14 AM damned_colonial: that he was wearing uniform down in plymouth, but is mostly dressing in civvies in the countr
12:39:15 AM damned_colonial: y
12:43:23 AM damned_colonial: so basically i think that H and A start out in uniform, but when they go outdoors E offers to loan them something
12:43:33 AM commodorified: that sounds good
12:43:49 AM damned_colonial: they'd wear their uniforms to church, and to dinner at sir h's though
12:44:11 AM commodorified: yep
12:44:29 AM damned_colonial: do you think E wears his uniform to dinner?
12:44:35 AM damned_colonial: at sir h's
12:48:35 AM damned_colonial: i think he might.
12:49:26 AM commodorified: I think so, yes. If only so that H and A aren't made to feel conspicuous. Plus, I doubt he has dressy clothes of any other sort with him
12:49:33 AM damned_colonial: right.
12:52:15 AM damned_colonial: ok, that'll do for clothes.
12:52:20 AM damned_colonial: perkses.
12:52:25 AM commodorified: perkses
12:52:32 AM damned_colonial: old family retainers and all that
12:52:47 AM commodorified: Started out working for GUJ
12:53:09 AM damned_colonial: now, we *must* assume that they knew GUJ's habits and are aware of E's
12:53:13 AM damned_colonial: i mean, they're not stupid
12:53:31 AM commodorified: Who signally failed to chase Mrs Perks, Miss so-and-so as was, around the pantry when she was a wee girl of great cuteness
12:53:36 AM damned_colonial: right
12:53:45 AM damned_colonial: that's what i'm thinking
12:54:34 AM damned_colonial: that what the gentlemen get up to amongst themselves is their own business, but all they (perkses) know is that E is as good a master as one could want, if only they saw him more often, and he's kind and generous and doesn't cause any trouble
12:55:43 AM commodorified: pays v well.
12:56:06 AM damned_colonial: i blame heyer btw
12:56:16 AM damned_colonial: every book i pick up has another character who informs this
12:56:39 AM damned_colonial: in this case, i'm reading venetia. and damerel's housekeeper/butler duo were not at all impressed when he brought people home for an orgy
12:56:51 AM damned_colonial: but then, they weren't a very good set of people, and they did almost burn the house down
12:56:57 AM commodorified: exactly.
12:58:36 AM damned_colonial: i imagine mrs perks thinks e should get married
12:58:46 AM commodorified: Indeed yes.
1:01:31 AM damned_colonial: ok, this is probably a dumb question
1:01:42 AM damned_colonial: do they *know* what E's up to?
1:01:52 AM damned_colonial: let's break that down a little
1:02:05 AM commodorified: okay
1:02:08 AM damned_colonial: do they know what sodomy is? let's assume yes.
1:02:43 AM damned_colonial: i mean, the other option there is that they know it's "abominable" but don't quite know the mechanics of it
1:02:53 AM damned_colonial: but perks would know the mechanics of it at least
1:03:06 AM commodorified: yeah. Mrs Perks possibly doesn
1:03:21 AM commodorified: 't quite connect this with E, who she has known since he was in short pants
1:03:28 AM damned_colonial: well, wait
1:03:30 AM damned_colonial: next question
1:03:46 AM damned_colonial: did they know that GUJ was shagging the male visitors he had to stay?
1:04:04 AM commodorified: hmmm
1:04:25 AM damned_colonial: they would've had their own rooms
1:04:34 AM damned_colonial: but the sheets probably would've been stained
1:04:35 AM commodorified: somewhere between thinking him sort of immature and odd for being so attached to his male friends and knowing he was shagging them, I sort of think
1:04:59 AM commodorified: well, yes, but young men stain their sheets anyway
1:05:05 AM damned_colonial: with santorum?
1:05:37 AM commodorified: no. but it's hard to be certain. I'm quite certain that young men went to bed less than shall we say completely shiny clean all over.
1:05:38 AM damned_colonial: (i haven't had a chance to use that word lately! hurrah!)
1:05:57 AM damned_colonial: hard to be certain = plausible deniability
1:06:05 AM commodorified: yeah
1:06:11 AM damned_colonial: ok, next question
1:06:28 AM damned_colonial: who was dealing with GUJ and his guests' rooms in the mornings?
1:06:41 AM damned_colonial: whoever it was would be a resident, full time servant
1:06:52 AM commodorified: doubtless there is or was a maid.
1:07:00 AM commodorified: Mrs Perks can't do it all when there are orgies
1:07:23 AM damned_colonial: you can't go sending a maid above stairs when there are orgies going on.
1:07:36 AM damned_colonial: even if GUJ is trustworthy. it's just... bad for the maid to be exposed.
1:07:41 AM commodorified: no, one sends her in the late morning when everyone has come to bnreakfast
1:07:55 AM commodorified: or only to the empty rooms
1:08:13 AM damned_colonial: so who's bringing up hot water, morning cups of tea, opening the curtains, etc.
1:08:16 AM commodorified: I'm pretty sure one doesn't send maids into rooms with gentlemen IN them at any time
1:08:25 AM damned_colonial: good point.
1:08:32 AM damned_colonial: no, wait.
1:08:33 AM commodorified: I suspect GUJ's friends brought their own valets
1:08:42 AM commodorified: if not, Perks would do it, I suppose.
1:08:55 AM damned_colonial: horatio was expecting a maid to come into the room his first morning there with archie
1:09:06 AM commodorified: He was, but thinking on it I am unsure why
1:09:16 AM damned_colonial: you can and do send maids in to do that.
1:09:26 AM damned_colonial: they don't hang about, but they do carry water and coals and whatnot
1:09:30 AM damned_colonial: i mean, they won't stay to shave you
1:09:48 AM commodorified: yes, in households with women in them. would one in this household?
1:09:55 AM damned_colonial: ah.
1:10:00 AM commodorified: I mean, yes, they go into men's rooms when the men are sleeping.
1:10:11 AM damned_colonial: so you're suggesting that GUJ doesn't have much in the way of upstairs maids
1:10:21 AM commodorified: I suspect there might be or have been A Boy
1:10:40 AM commodorified: or else there is a woman who does the rough work and Perks sees to any man who is unvaleted
1:10:42 AM damned_colonial: ok, so in short, the household has arranged itself so that impressionable young girls won't be exposed to anything unseemly
1:10:59 AM commodorified: yeah
1:11:20 AM damned_colonial: that suggests that there is a tacit understanding of what's going on, though
1:11:28 AM commodorified: well, maybe
1:11:45 AM commodorified: I think there's just also a sort of rakish bachelor establishment thing
1:12:09 AM commodorified: IOW what but not necessarily with whom. I'm sure GUJ invited friends who brought women, and possibly E has as well
1:12:14 AM damned_colonial: GUJ is interested in the opposite sex too
1:12:18 AM damned_colonial: but of course he can't have them to stay
1:12:23 AM commodorified: not NICE girls
1:12:28 AM damned_colonial: right.
1:12:34 AM damned_colonial: did GUJ have non-nice girls to stay?
1:12:42 AM commodorified: barques of frailty?
1:12:44 AM commodorified: I am sure he did
1:12:46 AM damned_colonial: quite.
1:12:51 AM damned_colonial: maybe not recently
1:13:17 AM damned_colonial: i mean, probably when he was young and rambunctious
1:13:29 AM commodorified: one never knows. perhaps his feet got cold.
1:13:43 AM damned_colonial: i tend to think of him a bit like Avon
1:14:24 AM damned_colonial: and tending more towards "particular friends" later in life
1:18:07 AM damned_colonial: not, like, one long term partner
1:18:09 AM damned_colonial: but a bit more settled
1:19:06 AM commodorified: One nice middle aged woman and a couple of long term male friends. With whom increasingly he mostly drank and talked literature and bitched about how the world was going to Hell in a handbasket. Yes.
1:19:15 AM damned_colonial: right.
1:19:26 AM damned_colonial: so, ok, lemme think this through
1:19:37 AM damned_colonial: GUJ died aged 70-something in the mid 1790s, yes?
1:19:43 AM damned_colonial: making him born around 1720
1:20:11 AM damned_colonial: let's say he acquired sherborne in the 1740s
1:20:29 AM commodorified: ok
1:20:38 AM damned_colonial: and let's say, furthermore, that the perkses are around 60yo at the moment.
1:20:45 AM commodorified: ok
1:20:52 AM damned_colonial: so the perkses were born around 1740
1:21:10 AM damned_colonial: assuming they went into service in their teens, that would've been in the 50s
1:21:16 AM damned_colonial: when GUJ was in his 30s
1:21:42 AM damned_colonial: perks himself could have been the aforementioned "boy"
1:21:58 AM damned_colonial: and mrs-p-to-be was the maid who wasn't sent above stairs
1:22:10 AM damned_colonial: i mean, wasn't sent when it might be compromising
1:22:20 AM commodorified: *nods*
1:22:32 AM damned_colonial: what i mean is, when they arrived there AS KIDS, there was an established modus operandi already
1:23:03 AM commodorified: yep
1:23:12 AM damned_colonial: my only concern is that *at that time*, in the mid 18th century, GUJ's household must've been considered pretty rackety
1:23:30 AM damned_colonial: and i'm not sure what mrs p's mother was doing letting her go into service there
1:23:34 AM commodorified: not so much. if anything, things were MORE rackty in general in his day
1:23:38 AM damned_colonial: well, that's true
1:23:47 AM commodorified: ... figuring she wouldn't turn up pregnant and lose her character?
1:23:59 AM damned_colonial: that's probably far from certain
1:24:21 AM damned_colonial: if he's got women of a certain reputation in the house from time to time, there's no reason to think he avoids the maidservants particularly
1:24:21 AM commodorified: well, not if GUJ had a rep for being v good to and careful abotu staff
1:24:31 AM commodorified: hmm.
1:24:51 AM commodorified: I suspect he had E';s allergy to power imbalance. i confess I have no actual proof of this
1:25:06 AM damned_colonial: there's always the option that mrs-p-to-be left another house where there *was* trouble
1:25:15 AM commodorified: hmm yeah
1:26:01 AM damned_colonial: ha ha
1:26:05 AM damned_colonial: i just thoguht of something
1:26:26 AM damned_colonial: maybe it's a household tradition that the newest/youngest footman has to do the upstairs stuff when there's guests
1:26:26 AM commodorified: ah yes?
1:26:33 AM commodorified: heh. i like it
1:26:51 AM damned_colonial: in the SCA in australia, the youngest laurel has to bring timtams for everyone to peerage meetings.
1:27:19 AM damned_colonial: so, hee, perks is doing his duty and protecting mrs p's delicate sensibilities
1:28:27 AM commodorified: indeed!